Cat: 0:00

I feel like every couple of months Ashley comes up with some way to sneak or smuggle science into some place that you'd never think it would make an appearance. Would you say that's right?

Ashley: 0:15

I wish my life was more of that even, you know, like if I could like create a job for myself, it would be science smuggler. I love that title.

Cat: 0:31

back when Ashley and I were long distance for a while, before we both moved back to San Diego together and got married. I get this text from my long distance girlfriend and she says, Hey, you know how there's gonna be this eclipse, it was gonna be visible over Oregon. And I get this message from my girlfriend who's like, I'm gonna go teach at this festival and I think you should come too. And I think that we could do some science at this festival. We went with this little camp that was like a science camp at this really chaotic festival that occurred. I had never done anything like that before and it was so cool to watch you doing neuroscience in that context.

Ashley: 1:16

Yeah, this is an organization called Guerilla Science, like Guerilla, spelled as in Guerilla Warfare. And their whole shtick is they bring science into unusual places and they do a lot of festivals and things like this. They're actually based in the uk, which has many more like arts, um, and sort of music festivals than we do here in the us. This was actually kind of fun because I interned at the, Philadelphia Science Museum, the Franklin Institute, when I was transitioning into grad school, like in the summer between undergrad and grad school. Because I wanted to get into this scene of science outreach. I met someone there who then later was like, Hey, do you want to go do this thing with this org? And yeah. That turned into a crazy experience. Probably the most unique environment I've taught science in. In my life, uh, people were, you know, it's a festival. They weren't sober necessarily. They weren't even clothed necessarily. This was, uh, completely optional.

Cat: 2:12

A man came up to me to talk about statistics and data science and he was fully naked. You know, that was the environment in which we were teaching science and we were just rolling with it.

Ashley: 2:24

yeah,

Cat: 2:25

And you were directing these people. I remember we're in this big tent. It's hot. We had this chaotic journey to get there where I drove hours and hours outta my way.'cause I'm an amazing partner to go get you because you were actually in a different town, right? Like we had this whole journey to even get there. And then. And then tell us like, what did you actually do? Like they plop you in this tent and they say, Hey, do some science teaching to all of these people.

Ashley: 2:51

So we did this thing that Guerilla Science called sensory speed dating, which is you would meet someone using only one sense or sort of predominantly one sense. So it gave us an opportunity to talk about like your different senses and the role in attraction and things like this. And so we would do things like blindfold people and then have them smell the person next to them and talk about the role of pheromones in attraction or, um, there was a taste part of it, but I think that we fed people food. It was like, you can feed your neighbor food.

Cat: 3:28

Yeah, I just want you to picture Ashley, like a mad scientist in the middle of this tent with all of these chaotic festival goers, directing them to like feed each other. To do, do little exercises is

Ashley: 3:41

definitely people licking each other, you know, unprompted this, so this happened. I mean,

Cat: 3:47

people took it further than the scientists thought they would.

Ashley: 3:50

yeah, well, absolutely. And I'd done this event actually in New York City because Guerilla Science also does these kind of pop-up art and science events in New York City. And that was like very different by much more restrained, um, the festival. However, they were, they were just ready to go. They were like, yeah, great. Um, sure I'll, uh, I'll lick the person next to me no problem. For science, you know?

Cat: 4:14

So the theme we kind of wanted to dial in on today is you, you know, have always had such a deep love for story. You've always had such a deep appreciation for narrative. I mean, you, you know, right out of college you are already working in a museum. You know, you, you, I think people often have the stereotype, right? About a scientist, especially a neuroscientist, someone who's in a hard science that it's all very dry and it's all very separate from the public and it's all locked away in an ivory tower. And, um, and of course they're, they're right about that perception in a lot of ways because we've made it so inaccessible. But you have faced so many interesting situations where the challenge has really been about breaking that boundary down. So one of the ways I love that you do this is that you run an event in San Diego for science storytelling. So tell me a little bit about this. How did like you even come up with this idea? What's it like?

Ashley: 5:16

Yeah, this was instigated by a friend of mine and, um, someone I went to grad school with Margot Wohl, who is an avid and expert science communicator herself. This was 2019. She said, Hey do you wanna do sort of a science storytelling thing? And there's other models of this, like folks might be familiar with The Moth, which is a storytelling podcast. There's a version of the Moth, sort of a different flavor of it called Story Collider, which has been around for a little while and is also really awesome. And so Margot was like, let's do one here in San Diego. You know, we know a bunch of scientists, we have the ability to teach people how to tell stories. I think the goal for us was twofold. I mean, the goal is obviously, as you said, to bring science out into the world in kind of a unique way, maybe through a different window than you would normally get it. But also to actually work with scientists and to convince them that there are different ways to talk about what they do and to actually show them the value in those different ways and how you can actually reach different people with different kinds of messages.

Cat: 6:20

We're gonna play Ashley's story now

Ashley: 6:23

So when I started my job here, I was handed one primary mission to create a neurobiology lab class in which students would learn the joys of electrophysiology. So they would poke things with electrodes and record signals from the brain. I dreamed of a class in which students would be elbows deep in all of the bread and butter techniques of neuroscience where they would leave not just with a pile of science facts, but with real science cred. I took this challenge to heart. I spent months buying equipment, testing things, writing protocols to record from earthworms and to, uh, record fly behavior. And I launched the class in January, 2019, and for four glorious quarters, we recorded oh, so many action potentials from, oh, so many neurons until March, 2020. Online teaching and moving classes online was quite frankly the worst at most, one or two students would have their cameras on. And I started feeling like this dream job I had just landed just became like a zoomy nightmare. My colleagues and I would just buy all these fancy webcams and microphones and ring lights, and I felt more like a YouTube creator than an actual professor. I thought, you know, we need to adapt. We need to do something different. So lab people that taught lab classes were especially scrambling. We were maybe thinking about adapting our classes to be about data analysis or reading scientific papers, but I had a more invasive idea. I wanted students to get that hands-on embodied research that I cared so much about. The idea actually came from my time as a graduate student here. So we would, uh, in our outreach program, bring these little recording kits into local schools and we would teach little humans the joys of electrophysiology, actually give them a chance to record neurons talking to each other for themselves. So I thought, we can do this. We can send these little kids home, and it would only be about one 10th of the thing that we would normally do in our class. But it was something. But the only thing is we also had to send something for them to record from. So I sent hundreds of undergraduates, the most universally loved creature you can imagine. A cockroach, not just one cockroach, actually several cockroaches and not the kind you would typically find in a restaurant here in San Diego. Actually, these were South American dubia roaches. They're about two inches long, and you can order them if you want, from dubia roaches.com. So I learned some things about online teaching, but I also learned about. Mailing cockroaches. So first of all, you can't mail them internationally. China doesn't want our fucking cockroaches these days. I'm pretty sure even Canada wouldn't consider taking our cockroaches. Second of all, you have to send more than you think you need. So the first time we did this, several students got their cockroaches dead on a rifle.'cause despite their reputation for being completely indestructible, these were exotic cockroaches and they were not. So just a longer bumpy shipment would send them right over the Rainbow Road. But there were other things, right? So students had to actually handle the cockroaches. So if they did get them, they would try to actually anesthetize them, and that's not something I could help with over Zoom. So one day, all 42 of us are in a blackout zoom room, and one student slides into the chat and says, I lost it, it's gone, and I'm gonna go get my brother to get it. So when we did actually get the cockroaches into ice, we could do this experiment where we would record from the tiny neurons that are in their legs and we would see actual potentials for ourselves. We would also do this experiment where we could send current into the leg. So I would play a song through the Zoom room and everybody would send this through a wire, and the current going through the wire would go into the leg stimulating the muscles and causing it to dance to the song. I used to call this the Cockroach Bop. And uh, one quarter a student figured out the perfect song for this, which is called Stanky Leg by One Hit Wonder GS Boys. So at the end of the experiment, I also had to tell students what to do with the cockroaches. So like all animal research, we would sacrifice the animal. We would, in other words, kill it. And this isn't like a send it to Jesus moment. It's like a stick it in the freezer for two hours and then cut off at said moment. But I gave students a more humane option. I said, look, if you keep the cockroach as a pet, the leg will grow up in a grow back in about five weeks, and then the cockroach can actually live out its whole one to two year lifespan. Like why not? The problem is I. Just two cockroaches, two that love each other very, very much, can create many more cockroaches. So a couple of years ago I got an email from a student subject line, former online student, do be a roach. Help. To be honest with you, I had been dreading this email. I knew it was coming for me. So, uh, this student, bless her heart, kept her two cockroaches, but now she had 25 baby roaches. So we instituted a takeback policy and we actually still have some of the progeny of this student's unintentional breeding operation here on campus. So I learned some things about cockroach management, but I also learned about things as an educator. So teaching online was really, really terrible. I would like crawl out of our office as this like disenchanted puddle and complain to my wife who had to hear this day after day. But the day of the cockroach bop, I smiled. I realized that in teaching and in taking care of other people, we have to give ourselves joy so that we can pass on some of that joy onto others. The other thing is that I think this experiment was just as valuable for student learning as using our fancy equipment. Like at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether you're poking a cockroach leg or you're manipulating specific neurons with a fancy laser. What matters is that you are paying attention, that you're asking questions, that you're noticing when the signal jumps, and you're asking why. And I wasn't sure if this would happen over Zoom, but I actually think it did. And I can't tell you how many students have come back to me later and have said that in their whole year of online learning. This was the only thing that felt real. And it's not just that we had a real cockroach, it's that there was real science happening. Lastly, I think there's a real power to bringing science home. When you bring science home, your brother is tagged in to grab the cockroach out from under the desk, and your mom is asking, why the fuck are we paying tens of thousands of dollars to UCSD for them to send you cockroaches? But after that, those same people ask different questions. They ask, why are they sending you cockroaches anyway? And why did that signal on the screen just jump? And at the end of the day,"why?" is the question I want more people to be asking. Thank you.

Cat: 14:31

So how do you work with the scientists? What? What do the scientists need to know?

Ashley: 14:35

We go through a process with folks where they pitch us and then we work on multiple drafts, uh, first in the written sort of world, and then we work with them on the performance side of it. And I think there's a couple big things that, uh, always are things that shift for people. You know, one of them is you can talk about your science. With emotion, right? You are allowed as a scientist to have feelings about, you know, what it is that you did. And that's important because we're taught sort of as scientists to be objective. Like everything is supposed to live in this sort of black and white world. And there are reasons in which that's really important, but when it comes to actually translating what you've done for other people, the thing that will grab people and loop them in and make them care is the emotional side of it. Um, related to that, I think the second thing is like thinking about, you know, the story elements, and this is a big thing we work on with people, which is like, stories have protagonists or they have heroes. If you're thinking about it in terms of like a hero's journey, uh, there's also a primary challenge or maybe multiple primary challenges that someone has to overcome, right? And so. Most of the time, that translates into someone thinking of themselves as the protagonist in their story and working through okay, as the protagonist, like, what is my challenge and what do I feel as I'm going through that? And that is also a part of this process of bringing the audience in and having them feel empathy with the science in a way that is really different than just giving them like a list of facts, for example.

Cat: 16:05

right. Like the scientist actually gets to be a person in these stories, you know? Something that, so I've been to every one of these storytelling events that Ashley's held, and it's, I think it's such a, anybody who's been on stage, done standup, walked up to a mic, you know, in any capacity, done an open mic, whatever, knows that that shit is hard

Ashley: 16:26

Yeah.

Cat: 16:27

scary, and I think it. It's really very, very moving. I remember the very first one you did, which kind of was a, a runaway success. Like you filled the space where you hosted it and it was on UCSD campus, which isn't always easy to go to. If anybody knows San Diego, it's like up in La Jolla and you have to figure out parking on the campus, which is terrible. And nevertheless, this place was filled with people, people of all different ages who were so curious to hear scientists tell stories. And I remember just how poignant it was. These people who, maybe this is the first time they've ever stepped into the spotlight on stage in this kind of way, you know, and you could tell people are nervous. What has always been amazing to me is how good people are though.

Ashley: 17:15

Oh, it's, it's incredible. Yeah. It, I have chills.

Cat: 17:18

they don't.

Ashley: 17:19

Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I think it's a beautiful thing because we get a mix of people who we're either like. Theater kids growing up and have long waited for a moment to combine these

Cat: 17:32

they've been stuck in the lab for

Ashley: 17:33

Yeah. They've been stuck in the lab. Right. And they're like, they finally get an excuse to like open that jar. Right. And so there's like those group of people, but then there's the people also who like, yeah, like you said, have never in their life done anything like this, but they see the value in it and they wanna get there.

Cat: 17:49

My favorite thing is like when somebody gets on stage and the most unexpected thing in the world comes out of their mouth, and that has happened multiple times at this event. Like some, uh, the last one you did this, this quiet person gets up, you know, with sort of small, quiet person and then just rolls into this raucous, funny story about being on a boat and how everybody starts to go to war for the snacks on the boat because the boat wasn't provisioned for enough snacks when you're like out there doing marine biology or whatever they're doing, just telling this like knee slapping funny. Story that you would never expect to be coming out of this person if you just walked by them on the street. And that kind of revelation is, I feel like one of the things, everybody in the audience at these events is just kind of roaring with surprise and delight and, you know, it's okay that the scientists are nerdy, it's okay that they're in strange situations, you know, everybody kind of gets it.

Ashley: 18:52

Yeah, and I, and I love that story as an example too, because you know, at first glance you're like, this is a funny story about scientists on a boat who are running outta snacks, right? That's like at its surface level, that's what the story is about. But all of the stories in one way or another are teaching you something about the process of science. And I think. You know, one of the things in this moment that is so blatantly blaringly clear to me is that we as a society don't understand the process of science. Okay? Maybe we know like the scientific method, right? But. Have you ever thought about how we know how many fish and the species of fish are in the ocean? Right? How do you know that? Okay, well we send scientists out on boats for long periods of time and they all have to be on this boat together, and it's really stressful and they run outta snacks, you know? And like, you know, it's like, oh wow. Like people are giving up six months of their lives sometimes to do this, to do this thing that they're passionate about, right? And that passion, that dedication, that gets lost in the science paper that you read, right? Like we all know, you know, the scientists in the room know that if you get a paper published, it's probably five years of work. It was like a bunch of experiments that failed, et cetera. Right? But you don't see the process of it behind that.

Cat: 20:16

Well, I'm thinking about, I was, so I was at this storytelling event and that story was being told and next to me there was a different scientist who also worked at like Scripps, you know, oceanography or whatever. And the solidarity that radiated from it was a whole collection of boat re adjacent scientists who were at the table next to me. They were all like, oh, we get it. You know, nobody knows how much the food matters until, and then they're all off after the event talking to each other about the food situation of being a boat adjacent scientist and the level of commiseration that was happening. Strategy. Like I heard people say, here's my approach, here's how I, I pack and here's like the barter system that my boat came up with.

Ashley: 21:05

Yes.

Cat: 21:06

So it just had these effects, like on and on of people, like, you know, revealing the other sides of it. Yeah.

Ashley: 21:12

totally, and I think what you're getting at too is that this communication and this community building is happening on two levels, right? It, it's happening in the way that it's bringing scientists together and it's bringing people together through shared experience, right? But then it's also bringing the community of non-scientists around these issues right together to talk about them and learn about them. And I love that. This actually like really reminds me of when we went and saw a live Dropout show, which is this, if you don't know an amazing streaming service, like the best comedy, the smartest comedy you will ever

Cat: 21:45

Obviously we're huge Dropout fans.

Ashley: 21:48

Yeah.

Cat: 21:48

predict that from,

Ashley: 21:50

Yeah. Literally, like we saw six other people we knew at this show that we like, didn't know would be there. Um, and, uh, they did this bit about nurses and about how every nurse has like a Stanley Cup, you know, one of those like massive beverage containers. Right. And it was like a whole joke about this. And we were laughing, we're not nurses, right? But it like taught us something about being a nurse. But then of course the nurses in the audience they're just

Cat: 22:15

They're just

Ashley: 22:16

dying. And I sort of feel like, you know, we're, we're doing that in SASSY too. We actually are, you know, bringing these things together. It's the mundane stuff, but it is stuff that brings us together.

Cat: 22:28

Well I'm just gonna wife guy again because you know, what I think also people don't see is you just do this as such a labor of love and it takes time. You are spending this time, I think the part of you that is like a teacher that runs really successful long-term educational programs comes out in the way you run this. Because, you know, a lot of community events maybe they sort of say, great, come do this thing, and they don't give you very much support and you just sort of sink or swim. But you actually, with SASSY have a whole process, you know, you plan in advance, you give them this nurturing feedback, you have a whole system of how they're gonna get feedback and refine, the story. So I think you, you set people up to win. You know, and you set them up to like be in that warm space where everybody's just, it's just win after win after win. You know? And that is like so wonderful because obviously public speaking's really hard. Like that's actually very difficult. And it, it doesn't mean, you know, you're a bad scientist if you struggle with public speaking. Like it's a learned skill. So you are also investing in people and in their communication abilities. And I've seen you challenge yourself. I think you know how to do it because you have really taken so many risks. Like When Ashley lived in New York, you participated in this, um, science comedy, which I think is like, if you wanna talk about the riskiest thing you can do, but get up on stage and do comedy, like do a speaking of, so you did this. So tell us about Caveat and all that.

Ashley: 24:06

Oh yeah. I mean, if anybody lives near New York, you have to go to Caveat. It's this, uh, they call it intellectual nightlife. And every night of the week, they have different shows where they combine scientists with comedians or historians with comedians. And someone there who's super talented, Kyle Marian, she ran this show that she called Academic Standup. She took scientists and was like, let's create a standup bit around your science. And this was a really formative process for me because it was a process of, you know, learning to tell a story and learning to give people insight into what you do. And actually realizing that like the comedic element is totally secondary to all of that. You don't lead with comedy. Like, so the way that we crafted the story was not leading with comedy. That that's the stuff that's honestly easy to put in later. Right? But you lead with the heart. Like you, you lead with the, the thing you were trying to get across, like the thing you want to teach the audience, and then you sprinkle in the little one-liners later that, you know, are, are just like for a laugh or two, right? Um, and that's, that's a different process than people probably think it is. Like, I think we think of comedy as being funny, obviously, right? And, and thinking of like, funny people doing comedy. But in the same way we've talked on the show about, the problem with calling someone a blank person, it's always about the process, right? It's always about, you know, going through a process and getting it to a stage where you can insert, in this case the comedy, right? And exercise that, and practice that. It's not a way of being.

Cat: 25:42

Okay. I think this was also really courageous because there was a different comedy event that you did at Caveat, where you were actually the straight guy on stage. Um, sorry, that's so in, that's so not the right word to use for you. I just have to say. Oh, so wrong, uh, the

Ashley: 26:00

incongruence anyway,

Cat: 26:01

but you were, you were the, um, person who was not the comedian and you, they had this bit where they had act like professional comedians sit right and be the audience member while you were the scientist teaching them, and you were just sort of authentically giving a science lesson while these comedians are like fully riffing, which I think is an incredible situation to be in. And tell me about that. How did

Ashley: 26:26

Yeah. This was a brilliant format. I mean, and I, I would love to do something like this here, honestly. Um, yeah, that was, that was so fun because again, it's like you're taking people and I, and I was not, um. I was not being asked to be funny in this situation. I was asked to be a scientist, but pairing me with a bunch of comedians who were like looking at, you know, a cross section of the eye and being like, what is that weird thing in the middle?

Cat: 26:50

They're riffing on things that you never even would think were funny or whatever. yeah,

Ashley: 26:55

and I feel like in a way they're representing the non-scientists in the, in this friendly way that is, you know, letting people in and allowing them too, to look at a thing and be like, oh, I don't understand that. Like, what the hell is that? Which at the end of the day, I wish more people would do because I think too often you either have to know what the thing is or you're considered an idiot. And, and I think the middle ground of being like, what is the thing? Like, well that's so like why do we call it that thing? Like why is that bird called like an eastern starling? Like, you know, like we have to like be able to ask questions and challenge it because that's actually what scientists do and are doing all the

Cat: 27:31

You know, I never thought of it that way, but they were like up there making, not knowing funny

Ashley: 27:37

Yes,

Cat: 27:37

They were making it curiosity instead of ignorance and even if they were sort of making fun of you or of scientists, it was never mean, it wasn't mean hearted, it was just, it was just sort of, we could actually come together and sort of laugh at how absurd it is that science is hard and you know, it's hard to access. It was really cool.

Ashley: 27:58

I love that format and I, you know, I, I, I want there to be so much more of this in the world, you know, like this is one place in New York that is really dedicated to this because the people that founded it, are really values driven and wanted this venue to exist. And they have done it as a model, but I think it's like the only place that you'll find like this, I mean, other places have one night of the week, like the place that hosted us for the SASSY Storytelling Night is a wonderful local cider works company, and they throw community events. Right. Um, They're called

Cat: 28:31

Bivouac, just to name them.

Ashley: 28:32

Oh, we love them. Yeah, they're great. But, you know, they're, you'll find these events, but I want there to be so many more.

Cat: 28:39

So what, what does it take to get so many more of these events? Like you are someone who made it happen out of your passion. Is there anything you would say to like. Business owners or general audience, you know, I remember, so you're holding this event and you got it off campus, right? So I said the first time you did SASSY, it was on campus and it's hard to get to and you just held SASSY and you had it in a bar in one of San Diego's like most happening neighborhoods, you know? And there was just something so cool and great about that. Like I was sitting near the door'cause I'm like very COVID cautious, those big open doors. And that meant I got to see like people coming in and out. And of course the first people who come into this event are like all the scientists we know and every, you know, and then there's like the second level of people who just like heard about it and saw the flyer and they're like, you know, normal people in the world. Right? And then there was like, as the event got going and it was clear something was happening passers by right. Coming in off the street. This one guy came in and and just said to me like, what is this? What on earth is this? You know, and

Ashley: 29:46

Yeah, I think my favorite moment was I was, so, I was dressed in a Spider-Man costume

Cat: 29:54

Ashley will take any opportunity she can to put on this Spider-Man costume she has,

Ashley: 30:00

You know, it was

Cat: 30:00

because she looks great in it.

Ashley: 30:03

it was like October 29th, right? The, the event was called Little Lab of Horrors. So my co-host and I dressed up, I was in a full Spider-Man costume with a lab coat, and this guy comes up to me, he's like, are you the host? And I was like, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, um, yeah, what, what is going on here? And I, and I told him, and he was like, oh, cool, okay, cool. Yeah. And he just like, I

Cat: 30:30

it was amazing. People were so positive and people were, it was such a draw and like the, the folks at the venue were happy. You know, they're sell, they're slinging ciders, it's the opposite of like the stereotype that this event would be cold and boring and all of that. It was so lively. I had to go outside because I couldn't even like, hear myself think people were jamming and talking afterwards.

Ashley: 30:52

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, I think about this a lot and I'm like, what makes an event like this different from, you know, the, the night of the science museum, which, which you and I have talked about, and we've had like lots of lovely moments in so many different science museums around the country. A lot of, you know, a lot of which are doing the thing where they're like, come in and have a cocktail while you walk around and look at the exhibits. Right. And I, those are, those are great. Um, but I think there is something different about doing an event embedded in the community that has like. Social cachet associated with it. Right? Like it's, it's a cool thing. It's edgy, right? These are stories where there's some cursing you know, maybe there's like a sort of off-color joke, you know, it's like a little bit different than your science programming by your like a plus science communicator, you know, on YouTube.

Cat: 31:46

Yeah. Like the Venn diagram of museum and ivory tower science is like pretty overlapping. You know, there's not a lot of like, okay, you know, there's, there's not a lot of stereotype busting in that overlap. And again, I say that with respect to these events, but like, you know, I don't always, I am a scientist and I don't always wanna go to night at the museum science panel.

Ashley: 32:11

Yeah. And they're, they're restrained by different incentives, you know, or, or they have different, like funding structures and people that, people that they're kind of answering to in the same way that academia is answering to people. And there is something like nice about, you know, SASSY is a completely independent organization. We actually don't get any funding besides like, the donations we take at events. And that gives us like a lot of freedom to kind of do what we want and to operate in the way that we want. And, to let the, let it be really values driven and to, and to let a piece of that be like, let's let it be really real and tap into some real emotions we talk about. You know, places where scientists have made mistakes and that's a big piece of it too. Right. And some science organizations might kind of shudder at that idea because they're protecting the idea of a pristine scientist. Right. And, and we worry tremendously about the image of scientists in society. But I actually feel like it's important to talk about the humanity of science. And, that's a huge piece of this event. It's something we can do because we're free to do that. And maybe we need both in the world, right? In some cases we need to, you know, protect science as sort of like put it on a statue and be like, this is a science with a capital S. And sometimes we need to just be like, look, it was done by people who need snacks when they go on long boat rides.

Cat: 33:32

Right. Yeah.

Ashley: 33:34

Yeah. Like both can exist.

Cat: 33:41

I feel like I see you always in everything You do. Take a bet that someone on the other side is gonna be smart, interested, curious, worthy, you know, able to. Hold nuanced, you know, views of things, able to be compassionate to scientists and think about lots of different pieces of it. And that's the way that I think you treat your students. You know when you send them a kit and you're like, look, even though we're all home and this sucks and you're not in the fancy lab, that, I spent all these years developing and all the equipment and all of that, I'm not really gonna let you off the hook

Ashley: 34:23

Yeah,

Cat: 34:23

I still think you're capable of science,

Ashley: 34:26

yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I, I believe in one believing people are. More interested and more capable than you would imagine them to be. And two, I believe in holding people and my students to a high standard of, you know, being rigorous and being engaged. And I think both of those things are really important to me.

Cat: 34:49

But at the same time, you don't see humor and just taking a risk, trying things, trying to do things with cockroaches, like all of that absurdity is part of your rigorous science. Like this is not like a cold dead, you know, stripped down thing. And I think that that combination is really uniquely powerful. And that's maybe why you're so good at finding these intersections that other people don't see.

Ashley: 35:18

Hmm. Well this is, this is all very nice of you, I mean, like at my core, I'm like a weird kid who's like digging up insects, right? And so many people are that kid. I feel like my goal as an educator and as a science communicator is to bring that little child out of people, you know? And it's, it's a really different version of science communication than like. Hey, did you know, I don't know, like X, Y, and Z? Or like, look at all these idiots over here who think this like, actually it's this. Those are different versions of science communication in my book, right? My version, my idealized version of science communication is come on in. Like we've got a pill bug that we just dug out of the ground and we're gonna stare at it and we're gonna wonder and ask questions about this pill bug. Which by the way, is an activity that I was asked to do in my very first teacher training program. And this is what they did with us. They were like, go find a pill bug. Like write down four different experiments you could do with this pill bug. Like right now. Yeah, like that answer questions, right? And. I actually have been thinking about doing this with my students because I think at the core, this is it, right? Like, ask questions, wonder things, be curious. Let that little kid in, you kind of out and, and my kid is a little chaotic sometimes. And I think that that easily lends itself to like, you know what, let's send cockroaches. Like, why not? Like why, why, why shouldn't we? Like, tell me why we can't do this? Okay. We can't send them to China. Fine. We won't do it to China, but we'll do it everywhere else. I don't know, we lose something when we, when we put science in a sterilized box.